tennyo_elf: (Toothbrush)
[personal profile] tennyo_elf
From my Tumblr page:

So I thought I wouldn't do this because I'm lazy but I guess I really wanted to gather all this together. I hope everyone will get where I'm coming from with this.

First, I'm not really wanting Buffy to be pregnant. I really hope she isn't, but after all the "hints" I've seen lately I'm pretty sure she is. If it's just fan craziness then thank goodness, but here I'm going to add to the crazy.

Second, I don't really want Spike to be the father. I do like the idea of a spuffy kid, but at the end, and if Spike's human. I would be happy, somewhat, that he would be the father, instead of random bloke, because I think it would matter to Buffy. But the fact they had drunken sex and dub con issues that would arise would make me sick to the stomach. In the end I guess I would prefer the random bloke better I suppose.

However if Buffy is pregnant I really do believe that Spike would be the father, vampire or no. Nothing is going to stop Joss if he wants it and if wants Spike the father, he'll deliver. My views on fantasy stories is never limit yourself in your speculation. So why do I believe that Buffy is pregnant and why Spike's the father? Well let's begin at the beginning. (Please remember this is speculation and not what I want. I see this as the direction the story is going to go, based on clues from various places, again I DO NOT WANT THIS.)

Season 8 we had Buffy have destructive sex with Angel that allowed them to give birth to a universe that would replace (thus destroying) our current world. Twilight was their baby. Here is a quote from other people regarding season 8 and it's relation to season 9:

Bitsyfest (Buffyforum): Season 9 is supposed to be more true to life, right? It's like I've been saying from the start - season 9 is the microcosm to season 8's macrocosm. If Buffy gave birth to a new universe in season 8 and that's the macrocosm, then the season 9 microcosm equivalent could very easily be her giving birth to an actual child of her own.

Playing on this idea, Angel and Buffy had a child in a season focused on macrocosm and in some ways Angel was being contrasted with Spike in season 8. We are shown both their reactions to the situation and how they both deal with it (Spike reaching out, talking to people, finding out whats what). Spuffy has been called the inverse of Bangel. And if in season 8, where we have Spike and Angel being compared, and have a Bangel universe child, it seems that we continue the comparison and inversion in season 9 with Spike and Buffy having a child as well, but since we'll have the microcosm to season 8's universe child we'll have Buffy with either a normal child or a child that could be linked to the restoration of magic (a new Seed of Wonder?).

What really stand out to me is this set:

Angel > Lose of soul > death of magic

Spike > Return of soul > birth of magic

Some have speculated this before, and instead of birth of magic I could see this as a normal birth as well, where the child and the experience could help further Buffy's development. I do think there are problems with this reasoning, as there are some questions regarding if a woman is only complete by having a baby (which, obviously, is a resounding no) or that having a baby is a fix it solution. I'm not saying either. I'm saying that the situation could be used by the writers that no matter the ending (because I can easily see this ending badly), this could help Buffy in some way.

Now for the other stuff! I'm just going to list quotes from the editors and artists and anything else said or shown that has been thinking what I'm thinking:

9. Maggie: All the announcements today were really exciting! I'm happy to hear Spike will be in season 9. Will he be having much interaction with characters other than Buffy?

Scott: Yes. I think some Spike fans will be disappointed to hear he's not getting his own series, but I think they should be happy to hear that he'll be getting an appropriate and significant role in Buffy's book. And dealing with more than just the girl herself.

What could Spike be dealing with other than Buffy? Of course there should be lots of other things, like his own development and life, which is good. There is other things to do as a hero, such as rogue slayers and demons and bad guys.

But what if it's more? What if Spike is dealing with a pregnant Buffy? And what if demons want that baby?

36. leyki: I'm a Spike girl, and he is "my guy". Last summer Mr Whedon said that Spike is his most developed character. Spike wasn't around enough (for me) in season 8 and I read that he will now be around Buffy. I would like to know about his arc, meaning I don't want to see him regressing but I want him to become even more of a man of his own, somebody that makes us proud. So what about his journey in season 9? Will he continue making us proud and developping even more? Or should we expect dark sides of his character coming back and maybe regressing him to previous or not so good stages?

Scott:As with everyone, there'll probably be a bit of a mix, of him making his fans proud, and of him being an imperfect character with failings that help to define him. Maybe being around Buffy will cause him to regress a little bit, or maybe he'll keep growing despite her being back in his face.

This could be nothing, at all. But lately I'm thinking what if this means that he did fall when presented with a very drunk and forceful Buffy who wanted him? If he was drunk at the party too and Buffy (maybe jealous) was zealous about sleeping with him? He might have given in. He may not remember this either because he was too drunk (or because something else was afoot, like fairy magic).

I can easily see a replay of Smashed, where alone Buffy rips off Spike's belt, practically jumps him and instead of fighting her (maybe he does at first) Spike just goes with. I think it would have been over quick and Buffy probably fell asleep right after.

3. Feminist icon gets drunk (again) with calamitous results!

Fans have been trying to guess what this means and many hoped it wouldn't be drunk knocked up sex. I was one of them, trying to find any way this could be something else. But so far, it seems like the evidence is pointing to the dreaded knock up.

"He's going to be a real factor in Buffy's life," said Whedon.

Obviously, Spike is going to have Buffy's back and there is nothing more to it. But if he's supporting her because she's pregnant, it adds a whole new meaning. I constantly see the scene from Bones where Haggins tells Angela when she thinks she's pregnant, that no matter who the father is he's there for her. I'm seeing Spike just like that.

“Buffy will be trying to sort out her life in the way that most twentysomethings do,” Chambliss said. “This struggle will play a central role in Buffy’s journey throughout the season, and I think it’s fair to say that some of the season’s biggest surprises and challenges will come from the non-supernatural problems that Buffy is going to face.”

Obviously if Buffy is pregnant that's not supernatural. But if Spike's the father wouldn't that be supernatural? Well, if the conception was supernatural but the baby is normal what would make the issue of the pregnancy? That would be pretty normal to me (for Buffy at least).

Robin Wood is returning in season 9.

Btw, Scott told me the title for Buffy #5 via e-mail: "Slayer, Interrupted". 
wenxina | October 18, 23:30 CET

Why would Robin be back? Well, if Buffy is pregnant Robin's mother is the only other Slayer mother that Buffy knows and some advice would be helpful for sure.

And how could Buffy's life as a slayer be interrupted? Losing her powers is one way, or going out of the fight for the sake of the baby could be another.

There could be other reasons, but I think with everything else it only adds to the evidence that Buffy is pregnant. 

Scott: Spike is going to be central to the Buffy title. 

Obviously, Spike has a big role. Being there for Buffy when's pregnant could be one, I think I covered this before. If he's the father though? He would be front and center for sure.

Scott: We'll definitely address Spike's love life and emotions, and the question of whether or not it's time to move on.

Scott: It's totally possible that Spike could have his own series in Season 10. The landscape will be different next time, for sure. 

I wanted to address these two together. Because I think who the father won;t be reveled until late in the season. And Spike, with Buffy pregnant and emotional and him thinking it's not his and never would be could cause him to think it's time to move on.

And in season 10? The landscape will probably be different because here's another crazy speculation: Buffy's baby is normal but could be used as the vessel to restore magic. The baby is kidnapped (oh gasp, cliched much?) she tries to get the baby back and Buffy is somehow teleported to another dimension. Season 10, everyone can have their own title because Buffy is separated from everyone, and that her trying so hard this season to fit into this world causes her to be literally flung into another.  

Scott: The title came from Joss, and it describes more than the first four issues ... there will be various wake up calls this season.

I think this self explanatory. I don't like this because I think this sounds bad on Buffy, like she needs wake up calls, however being pregnant and wanting to keep the child certainly would. Having Spike be her caretaker while pregnant? She'd see another side to him.

Scott: Yes and yes, actually. Not so much the question of the soul, as the fact that he's on the good guy's team. But yes, vamp status is something that changes the dynamic for Buffy. But this is secondary to other things going on with Buffy and with Spike.

Spike as a vampire is secondary to what's really happening between these two? Hmm...

I'm doing a scene now with Nikki Wood and her Watcher that I think came out particularly nice.

Same thing as Robin, we have focus on Nikki, the only slayer we know who has been a mother. 

2. AndrewCrossett: Jumping back to issue #1 for a question: at Buffy's party, Spike at one point looks out the door and says something to the effect of "buzz off, mosquito, I only hire roaches." Who or what was he talking to?

Did he see a bug, or is something weirder going on? It's a mystery ...

And this is starting to focus on how Spike could be the father. Fans have been talking about Buffy being only pregnant with Fairy eggs in her ear and that she'd want to incubate them. But that doesn't fit in with the other quotes, unless it's two very different issues. That speculation is possible and I like it much better than this one I'm forcing down your guys throats right now.

Basically Joss has his own spin on myths. Fairy's deal with changelings and children. In "The Chain" in season 8 we see the fairies associate with healing slugs. I'm not sure what the motive for this one Fairy who seeks out Buffy is but Spike saw it at the party. And only Spike. And Spike was the one to drive it off like it was annoying him? The fairy could have done something to Spike or to his drink or to Buffy, which allowed Spike to be the father if they had drunken sex that night. Maybe the fairy even caused the drunken sex...ewww...or maybe there was no sex and it just used Spike's 'stuff' to impregnant Buffy. 

24. zamolxis: Hi Scott and thanks for your time with us. Some time ago (in a Buffyfest interview I think) you promoted Season 9 with "feminist icon getting drunk with calamitous results". In how much time (issues) we can expect to see these results, because some of the fans are speculating that Buffy got pregnant sleeping with somebody at the party while drunk (to which I quote Buffy: Eew and gross)?

Well, I was being flip, obviously, but the results of her poor judgment and foresight will take us a ways into the season.

What other mistakes can be that far reaching? Pregnancy last 9 months right? And in terms of the season it's been only a few days that has passed for the story and two months for us.

25. Sky: Hey Scott, thanks for doing Q&A. My second question is: Will Spike's role in season 9 be something like Giles role. Bringing information's about demon world and just being knowledgeable about those stuff, just like Giles was. Something like a new version of a watcher to Buffy. Or will his role be something like Angel in Buffy season 1. Bringing useful information's, but mostly staying in the shadows. Or something completely else? I apologize if the question is somehow a spoiler, and I understand if you can't answer it.

No, his role is way more emotionally connected than information dump. I don't think Veiriti would be happy with that role for Spike ...

I get that Spike still loves Buffy and there is a spuffy story to be told, but "way more emotionally connected" seems like there is more going on. That just makes me feel even more convinced Buffy is pregnant and Spike's going to be there for her during all the ups and downs, so she's not alone dealing with this big thing.

With the mystic realms closed off, that sort of magic can't be drawn down anymore, but magic that is innate to a person, a creature, or an object remains basically unchanged. Obviously this allows us some useful wiggle room ...

So my speculation is that we are talking about a fairy here, I can so hear Spike nicknaming a fairy as a mosquito. If not, and considering the panel in #40 showing us a little fairy, will we see more of fairies and their story/connection to Buffy's story in season 9?

We will get back to the fairies soon.

Fairies and wiggle room. That adds to my previous statement that the fairy is connected with Spike and that Spike could possible be the father.

 There is one such scene like that in Issue 6 where Buffy is going through a MAJOR life change and Spike is there for her. It's only 2 pages but it really resonated with me like the scene on Buffy's back porch. I can't wait to hear wait people think about it.

Buffy is facing a time where she no longer will be part of the fight. It's one of those interpretive covers. You don't see that cover depiction in the issue itself. That cover came out better than I thought. I was real happy that I was allowed to put the logo on the floor. I love when I can inject perspective in the covers. There are so many surprises coming your way. Once this arc reaches its climax, all bets are off. Nothing and nobody is safe. And I'm so not kidding!

Buffy major life change and Spike there for her? Again that reminds me of Haggins and Angela from Bones. Plus Buffy is not going to be part of the fight any longer, for at least awhile. 

"Joss did say that this was a party and it was going to get a little out of hand, so I wanted to reflect that maybe Buffy was ready for that eventuality. You could say it's her clothing that made it so easy for her to get a little reckless as we'll learn in a future issue (well, that and the alcohol). Make no mistake. This party is going to have serious ramifications on Buffy's life. Does that sound a little dramatic? Good. It should...."

This quote does make me rage but again this convinces me about Buffy being pregnant...and not just with Fairy eggs in her ear. Unless the fairy flew up her skirt. I see this as working with my idea that Buffy basically jumps Spike and her clothes makes it easier for them to have sex, no belt, no underwear (Spike doesn't wear them), tiny skirt, easy for a quickie! (This makes me extremely unhappy as a spuffy because I wanted them to have wonderful reunion sex later in the season, that being their first time in a long time, but I guess this would contrast with epic sex bangel had in 8. Both were "drunk" and both had sex with similar results, bangel epic space boinking, spuffy a jumping hot quickie, one with a world destroying baby the other with a life giving baby.)

Overall all those the quotes so far that have been adding up to my speculation. Also fans have pointed out that there was a belt on Buffy's bed in number 1 that looked liked a man's and in issue 1 Spike was later shown not wearing a belt.

Visual clues haven't been many, but we're only issue 2 and there is a lot more to come. Again, I could be wrong (and I hope I am) and I've said this before, when I see a plot path I'll mention it. And I see a lot of them.

So I think Buffy is pregnant, Spike's the father, but no one will know that Spike's the father and it will be misdirected/hardly mentioned until the big reveal later on in the season (Angel is Twilight, Spike is the Father). Spike will probably care for Buffy and the baby thinking it's not even his own. Of course, they might reveal who the father is early on (only to the readers though), but I think they'll make it a non issue at first.

Lastly the Spike mini comic. That 8 page little thing that was lovely and basically no one thought it meant anything? Well, if this theory is true, the foreshadowing of the Spike mini would be off the wall when looking back at it.

Also, totally unrelated, but I think the new gay character that Jane and Drew will be writing will be the new real male slayer (so long my Spike as a male slayer theory, which I thought they would either make Spike human or Buffy pregnant with his child, and so far to me it seems Spike's going to stay a vampire, probably, and Buffy will be having a bun in the oven).

I know people will want to shot me for this and I'm really sorry for adding to the crazy. I do not want this really, I just see this as something they would do with everything that's been said. Forgive me and feel free to slap me. Thanks for reading. <3

Date: 2011-10-20 11:19 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
*hugs you and smooches you* Don't worry, honey, nobody wants to slap you. It's a good spec, and I like that you collected all the separate quotes in one post.

I don't know about Buffy's pregnancy. So far, I don't believe that Joss will go there. But I was wrong before, so who knows. I can't explain, I just feel that literal pregnancy would be a weird turn for this mythology. Twangel baby, Kitty Twilight, was born without pregnancy (unless you count Angel's preparation of its birth as a grotesque pregnancy).

I have the impression that a *baby* storyline will be really strange, controversial and possibly fandom-divisive.

Date: 2011-10-20 11:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
Thanks! ^_^

I feel really uncomfortable with even talking about this, because well, of, everything. Buffy forums feels like it's getting more and more hostile.

I have the impression that a *baby* storyline will be really strange, controversial and possibly fandom-divisive.

I really agree. I do think Joss is going to go there though. If you knew about Twangel at first wouldn't it feel the same? But they did it anyway. I could be wrong too, and I hope I am. We'll know in a couple of months.

And if Spike's really the father, the fandom would be completely divided (between spuffy fans who hate it and love it, between Spike haters and lovers, between people hating the baby thing and people liking the baby thing). Isn't that what they said on that one video about something that would polarize the fandom?

I'm just fastening my seat belt, because, my god, I just know things are going to get worse, both in the fandom and the story.

But if the writers are really careful about it all, I think this could actually be a great season. Depending on the writing, it could actually be good.

Date: 2011-10-20 11:42 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Duster_by_awmp)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Yes, I fastened my seat belt too. I expect a lot of drama, both in comics and in the fandom, no matter in which direction the story goes. In a couple of months people will start saying that season 8 was fine, but season 9 is very bad.

Have you read The Vegemite Effect?

It's the best explanation of the fandom dynamics, IMO.

Date: 2011-10-21 12:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
Thanks for the link! It does sound like the fandom dynamics I know of. People expect something, so they like that something because they think it'll be coming up.

That's why I'm completely open and I rather my speculations be wrong so I'm always on my feet.

This whole thing, no matter which way it goes, could be good because it could be interesting. If they do it and it interesting (and written well) I'll be happy. I went in season 8 was an open mind and low expectations and I was able to like some things in season 8 I wouldn't have if I read it as it came out, so I know I'm guilty of the vegemite thing (which I now want to try).

Date: 2011-10-20 11:36 pm (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (sarah_connor2)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
THanks for putting it all together like this. :)

If Buffy is pregnant, I'm actually leaning more towards the idea that Spike isn't the biological father - vampire, after all - but he will be the one who takes on the role of father. After all, one of Joss's favourite themes is that the family we make for ourselves is far more important than the family we just happen to be born with.

Date: 2011-10-20 11:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
Thanks, it took me a good chunk of my time yesterday to gather everything. :)

It would make more sense for Spike not to be the father biologically I agree, because he's a vampire. And I do not like the idea of them having drunken sex on the party night.

Just the fairy thing? It seems pretty obvious that the pregnancy thing could be connected with the fairy and what would be that purpose?

But I do like the idea of the theme regarding making your own family, just that theme doesn't seem to have been in play after season 6 in a major way. You could say that theme is always with us because Xander and Willow are always her family in every season. And in season 8 you could say that the Slayer army was Buffy's family, but it wasn't overt as other themes. I just have this gut feeling that Spike will be the father biologically, as odd as that sounds.

But it could be either or, honestly. It's going to be crazy either way.

Would if be worse though if Xander was the father? Because of Dawn and everything that happened before?

Date: 2011-10-21 01:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quiet-rose90.livejournal.com
I probably won't like buffy to be pregnant either, I feel it's too soon for that. But I too have the feeling she is I have no idea if I would be happy if it's a Spuffy baby or not? But it's Joss's story, I feel he will do whatever it is he wants :)

Date: 2011-10-21 02:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
Exactly! Joss will do whatever he wants and sometimes that can be scary! XD

But yeah, I do think it's too soon for a baby! And poor Buffy can hardly support herself, how the heck is she going to take care of a baby? (I think though something will happen and she won't, either the baby will die or she'll be separated from the baby or Spike will be on baby duty.)

Date: 2011-10-21 02:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] quiet-rose90.livejournal.com
I'd kind of would be looking forward to Spike as babysitter that would be cute!

Date: 2011-10-22 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
Yes! If they do do the pregnancy thing I know one thing I'll be looking forward to see: Spike the caretaker/Babysitter/"Father"(biologically or not)

Date: 2011-10-22 04:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] boot-the-grime.livejournal.com
Words cannot describe how much I hate this idea. And I don't believe it's the case, either. I see hints pointing towards Buffy being pregnant (still hoping it's something else, though), but I don't see any reason to think that Spike is the father. Mystical Vampire Baby #2 would be an incredibly dumb idea, and the only thing I'd hate more than Buffy getting pregnant from blackout drunk sex she doesn't even remember, is Buffy getting pregnant from blackout drunk sex with Spike. (Well, actually I would hate it even more if it were Xander, but other than that, Spike is the last guy I want it to be.)

I can easily see a replay of Smashed, where alone Buffy rips off Spike's belt, practically jumps him and instead of fighting her (maybe he does at first) Spike just goes with. I think it would have been over quick and Buffy probably fell asleep right after.

This wouldn't be a replay of Smashed, since Spike had been actively pursuing Buffy sexually for at least 2 episodes before that happened. It's not like she did something against his will and poor he just succumbed to it. He was just momentarily surprised and then responded enthusiastically. If he doesn't want sex, he says "no" and throws her out, as we've seen in Gone. And if he felt that way when he was soulless because he thought she wasn't being herself while invisible, I can't imagine a souled Spike would be OK with sex with a totally drunk-out-of-her-mind Buffy.

And well, then there's also the fact that he can't knock her up, unless there's a Wolfram and Hart plan or some similar insanity, and that would be really ridiculous in a magicless world.

And none of the quotes about Spike point toward him being a father of Buffy's baby. Spike will deal with things other than Buffy? Well, I sure hope he's not such a limited character that his whole life revolves around Buffy or that he can only be used as a love interest! He has his bug ship, the world knows about vampires and Slayers now and their attitudes to them are very confusing, there are also disgruntled Slayers, demons like the one released from the mystical prison, there's Severin...and Ilyria is going to appear. Surely there can be many storylines for Spike than aren't all about Buffy? (And in fact, wouldn't pregnancy be more about Buffy?)

Furthermore, I surely hope that folks at DH don't believe that Spike can only matter to Buffy emotionally and play a big role in her life if he knocks her up! Geez, in that case any random bloke could be the guy to play a huge role in her life and be emotionally involved, if mixing your DNA with someone is all it takes!

Besides - Twilight was NOT a pregnancy. It was a "birth" only in the most metaphorical sense, but Buffy was NEVER pregnant even in the metaphorical sense. Maybe Angel was metaphorically pregnant as Hayes says, but Buffy sure wasn't.

Date: 2011-10-22 04:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tennyo-elf.livejournal.com
I totally get you. And not happy with this either and I don't want the pregnancy thing or Spike the father or anything of the sort.

I agree with the fact Spike with soul would not agree with the idea of having sex with a very drunk Buffy, but I do think they might just go there (they would make some kind of excuse, like he was drunk too or something stupid). I don't think I was clear on the thing about the Smashed comparison, it just could play out similar to that if Spike was just as drunk or maybe effected by fairy magic (I wold rather Buffy just have Fairy eggs in her ear, that would make me content). Who would have thought Angel would be Twilight? I'm not Angel's biggest fan but I watched Angel the series and I thought Angel wouldn't do that, but I was wrong. Even if Joss wanted to deconstruct Bangel to have Angel do the things he did as Twilight was just...anyway, if they want to do it, they will. I'm just speculating on something I see could possibly be the case. As I said above, as a spuffy, I don't want them to have had sex that night of the party.

And yes, as I mentioned, there should be other things more important to Spike's development. I agree, really I do. But the more I think about it the more I've come to realize that it's always going to be about Buffy (not to Spike, but to Joss). Doesn't Joss ask "What's the Buffy in it?" And if they aren't going to spend so much time on what happened before (the ending of Chosen, the non-call, etc. I know they will spend some time, like I see in issue 2) then they are going to focus on another issue that centers on Buffy. Like their conversation in issue 2. I get that Buffy is in a bad place, Spike's in better place, but the whole conversation was about Buffy, there was no Spike side of it (besides "I'll be dead"). Now future issues could have more Spike centered stuff, but it's obviously going to be about Buffy and where Spike fits in Buffy's life not the other way around.

I know people don't like this idea, myself included, but I can easily see them going there. I know Spike can and should and will be more emotionally connected to Buffy besides if he knocks her up. I'm not trying to deal in absolutes or anything.

And yes, Twilight was not a pregnancy, but a birth. I should probably clear that up. However there was a "child" of Buffy and Angel, a universe based on destruction of the current world. And yes, I can still see that Spike could the father in a magicless world because they said they have wiggle room and Fairies. And again, I do not like it, it just makes the most sense in terms of crazy.

I'm just saying, leave yourself open to the suggestion rather than close yourself off to it because it might hurt less in the long wrong. But I do agree I would rather it be random bloke. The only thing that would be worse is if Xander was the father.

I hope this is wrong, but I wanted to get this off my chest. If I'm wrong, then good!


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